Help with Tomb Kings, Advice on making an army

I'm about to start collecting T/K after quite a few years using Orcs and Chaos, and after having read the book I feel I need some advice on where to go with these boys. The biggest problem is my armies have never been magic heavy in the past - my Orc army is built around 5/6 pieces of artillery and static units of orcs, my chaos uses small elite regiments- neither of which you seem to be able to do with TK. I've come up with a 2000pt list and was just wondering what people thought:

List 1

Tomb King- L.Armour, Destroyer of Eternities, Collar of Shapesh- 273
Liche Priest- Hieratic Jar, Cloak of the Dunes- 155
Liche Priest- Staff of Ravening- 160
Liche Priest- Disp. Scroll, Enkhils Kanopi- 160

20 Skeletons- H/W, Shield, Command, Banner of the Undying Legion- 210
15 Skeletons- Bows- 120
15 Skeletons- Bows- 120
3 Chariots- 120
5 Heavy Horse- 80

4 Ushabti- 260
Tomb Scorpian- 85
Tomb Scorpian- 85

2 Screaming Skull Catapults
Or
Catapult and 4 Carrion

Any feedback would be greatly appriciated...

I don't play Tomb Kings, but this list seems reasonably versatile.

You love magic, don't you?

I'd go with one Catapult and 4 Carrions. Unbreakable flying stuff is awesome to pin an enemy into place while waiting for the chariots, the scorpions or the infantry.

Yeah, I do feel the carrion would help support other areas of the army, I just have an incredibly strong leaning to anything that hurls heavy objects at stuff- as anyone whos lined up against my 4 Rock Lobbers and 2 Doomdivers will testify...I just have to learn to go a different way with this army.
The plan for this army is for the Bow armed skellies to screen the other harder hitting infantry (Skell w/ hand wep and shield, Ushabti and scorpions) with the cavalry and chariots flanking. I just felt the three liches would help out with manouvering and helping the archers to either move fire and move or fire twice per turn- a possible 60 shots if all works out, and the one in the cloak could keep the flankers moving.

Don't forget you can use the incantation of Righteous Smiting or whatever it is, on your Screaming Skull. Two shots a turn doesnt sound so bad.

I'm going to have to say though, that your skeleton units are a little to small. The idea of scorpions is to be a sinkhole as your power units take their flanks, BUT it's the outnumbering Fear causers that really do damage. It's great if you win a combat because your heavy hitters got the enemey in the side, but without autobreaking, your just not likely to win many rounds of combats.

That said, I don't know where to get the points. King Tut doesn't like Heavy Horsemen, and he will probably suggest dropping them. Any way, he is one of our resident TK players, so I would take his word heavier then mine.

Burro Boskov

Alright here are my thoughts on the list (i like the list btw but there are a few issues i have with it.)

Your skeletons are not going to win close combat fights, they are worse then goblins. They are 8 points each goblins were 2 (now 3 which makes me very upset). You are highly optomisic if you think your CC unit is going to tip the game in your favor. They will if anything make the enemy a bit nervous (hitting on 6's) and then they will die. I would make it bigger. 25 is a minimum for me. BUL is nice but is easily dispelled. As bound items go first you may get this one off. Keep in mind you cannot exceed the number of skeletons you normally had. You will probably want the set up flankers (chariots excel at this). The reason I do not like HH (as burro mentioned) because in reality they are two skeletons warriors playing chicken with the enemy (its a american game where someone gets on the back of another and they have to push a person over- I think) sure they will move a whole 8 inches. But they will be shot to pieces and/or killed in CC with their poor 4+ save. And dont forget crumbling. IMO (in my opinion) they are only useful if you want a all cavalry army. Spend the points on chariots/skeltons/special choices.
Ushabtis are a magnet for enemy fire with their relativly low toughness and 5+ armour save they are sitting ducks. I would use them as a come-from behind unit (stick em behind your main CC unit) then move them into postion and magically charge them into combat. (in the flank of course). Carrion are nice, but they are not like other flyers in one respect (they crumble this is BAD) they however are excellent at march blocking and going after warmachine crews. (possible 40" range if you have a liche priest situated right. On the first turn it would be roughly equal to 32" which is still respectable. ) Do not flank charge an enemy with them unless you are SURE you can win.
If your hierphant dies (heaven forbid!) its not the end of the game. Do not take a pessimistic view from this point. Sure you will lose a couple skeletons (but thats what BULs for!) sure you will lose your carrion (who will probably be dead anyway) but with high ld for the important stuff the game is not over. You can still nab victory from the jaws of defeat with your hierophant dead. But as a safety precaution and one of my golden rules Always equip him with the cloak of dunes.

Personally in 2000 point games i prefer a High Liche Priest as my lord. But then again thats just me and I play a very different style to what you suggested.
You may lose your first games, don't worry it happens. Tomb Kings have a COMPLETELY different strategy than orcs and g (i play them too) and are almost the complete opposites. (Excellent disipline, don't have highly expendable units, relativly low S attacks, Characters are not CC monsters but are wizards, and a Tomb Kings is good for going after enemies heroes and regular troops. Dont stick him in a one-on-one fight with a enemy lord.)
BTW
Welcome to the forum

Ok, based on the advice so far on this thread and others on the site I've been working on a new list which is very different to the first...but one I feel might be a little harder hitting in certain areas.

LHP- Staff of Ravening, Neferra's Plaques of Mighty Incantations, and either the Collar of Shapesh or the Cloak of the Dunes (I'm not to sure which one of these would be best to protect him, as i intend to stick him with 19 Tomb Guard)
- 340/ 345

Liche Priest- Dispell Scroll, Cloak of the Dunes(if not on the LHP) or Heiratic Jar
- 160/ 165

Tomb Price- Chariot of Fire (It's ok, we've fireproofed him- bloody stupid idea for a name), Great Wep, L.Armour, Shield, Golden Eye of Rah-Nutt- 203

25 Skeletons- H/Wep, L. Armour, Shield, Standard- 210
20 Skeletons- H/Wep, Bow, L. Armour, Standard- 170
1 Tomb Swarm (Need to make basic core limit)- 45

19 Tomb Guard- Full Command, Banner of the Undying Legion- 283
3 Chariots- 120
Tomb Scorpion- 85
3 Carrion- 72

Bone Giant-220
SSC- Skulls of the Foe- 110
Total- 2015

Plan for this one would be for the archers to once again screen the 2 main fighting units of skellys, but this time only needing one incantation to fire twice instead of having to do it on 2 units. The slightly larger unit of skeletons should be able to outnumber most enemies, and the Tomb Guard are quite capable of dealing punishment to most units.
The Chariots with the TP in them will attempt to flank, I think the combination of the TP on a souped up chariot, the normal chariots, and the Bone Giant should be able to hold their own. The Tomb Scorpion I intend to use to support the main combat skellys, whilst the Carrion fly off to harras the warmachines etc. Seeing as i've got the Tomb Swarm I may as well use ICFB for it, just to irritate the enemy.

As other option with this list I could drop the Giant and carrion and replace them with another T.S and a Tomb Prince to act as guard for the LHP, and use the spare points on anothe SSC or some more foot troops or maybe even a couple more chariots, although this may make the unit a bit clumsy.

The main problem I see with this list is that the Chariots now restrict my choice of specials, as they and the Tomb Guard now limit me to the one Scorpion and the carrion. I feel the Carrion may be necessary to deal with warmachines or disrupting his movment, or is the single deep-striking tomb swarm up to this task?
Also the inclusion of the Giant- I want to take him to help out the chariots, if the flanking works out I'd just love the idea of those 2 units attacking my opponent in the rear(no joke plese, let's keep this clean), and it's a tactic thats worked well with my Greenskins, only in the shape of Savage Orc Boar Boys and a Black Orc Warboss on a Wyvern. If I drop the Bone Giant I'd consider using the second scorpion for the job...but then there goes the Carrion. I've even considered using the spare rare for some Dogs of War Heavy Cav...

KingTut- just a quick question, ref:
Ushabtis are a magnet for enemy fire with their relativly low toughness and 5+ armour save they are sitting ducks. I would use them as a come-from behind unit (stick em behind your main CC unit) then move them into postion and magically charge them into combat. (in the flank of course).
The more I look at them, the more i'm convinced they're just too pricey for a 2000pt army, do you actually use them?

Anyway, thanks for reading again- I know I can go on a bit. As before any advice would be greatly appriciated.

I have actually just used them once. I have 3 ushabtis and i need to play more games with them. I took a bit of a holiday from Tomb Kings and played more orcs and goblins. I agree that they are pricey. But they do provide much needed power. Its just hard to deliver them. and considering you can get a whole 20 tomb guard (who have KB and are much better) i would stick with the tomb guard.

I read your new list and its definately a different take.

1st off
Why do you put the hierophant (HLP i assume) into the tomb guard unit
unless its to keep him away from shooting.
Liche priest is good. Though if possible i would put the jar on the HLP. Dont fiddle around with armour for the HLP he should not be anyway near combat or in anythings LOS. heres anohter idea take the chariot off the Tomb Prince and take another tomb prince. Stick both in the skelton units to give them some umph. and you have 2 pretty good fighting CC blocks. The Giant and Chariot Combo is a good one. Just make sure to always heal your giant if you can. (watch out for crumbling with it). If you are up against a lot of T 4 armies then forsake the staff of ravening wounding on 6s really isnt worth it. IF going against lizardmen skinks or mostly lightly armoured T3 units it is awesome. I once wiped out a howdah team with it and the dinosaur just stood there all game looking dumb. Its wonderful with the cloak of dunes. Fly over there in movement. Shoot the staff in magic and fly back in next magic phase. And your opponents don't want to waste their precious Dispel Dice on a weedy stick. Not when you can have 2 shots with your catapult.

As a helpful hint dont go over 2 scorpions other wise you are known as a cheesy player by some.
Now if you wanted to you could reform your skeleton bowman in the movement phase and then charge with them in the magic phase.

Just some intial thoughts
Please say who your up against mostly, I will talk some more about your list at a later post.

The biggest problem I face is that i'm a member of a fairly good sized club, with a wide choice of armies- pretty much everything apart from Skaven and other Tomb Kings. I think I'm gonna go away and come up with a couple of lists, One LHP and one TK led. That way I can field the one that may be more up to the task, and if I have enough minatures I can change it around if things don't seem to go well for either of them before working out a 2000pt army for tournaments etc.

The Staff of Ravening is something I've been a fan of since reading the book, it might only be S2, but it has the chance to be potentially devastating if things roll right. I played a guy with Ogres who let me take it for an Orc shaman, as he said it was worthless, but after watching his gnoblar trappers dissapear, closely followed by a unit of 3 bulls, he decided to start dispelling it and let some of my greener magic slip through. I admit this used a bit of luck but surely if it does enough damage to an opponets unit in the first couple of turns to make him pay attention to it, this could only benefit my other, more useful incantations?

On another note- Dogs of War units....i'm slightly confused on this. In the TK book it classes them as rare, however in the lists from the GW site it classes most of the "regiments of Renown" as specials, but makes no reference to the core units in a D o W army being special. Am I right to assume they're rare? Can anyone shed any light on this?

Also- KingTut, most people consider my Orcs to be a bit cheesey, and too unorcish...but I claim I'm just making use of their strengths. I think T/S are great, but from the sounds of it people wouldn't be too happy if I fielded 3-4 of them in the same army, but I'd just be making use of a very good unit. I can think of other armies that do the same, take for example the Ogres with their giant-killing gnoblar thrown weapons, or the Chaos Lords of Tzeentch on Dragons with a 3+ ward save against missile weapons and the Orange fire (re-roll all wards and saves)- I've only managed to take down that combo twice, once with a goblin...but that's another story.


This post has been edited by bigbeewolf on May 7 2007, 07:25 AM

I think this is how it works
Dogs of war are listed in every 6th edition book as a "Rare" choice however in some dogs of war army book or site or something it tells you what choice that particular unit fills up. For example : the mounted skink unit is a rare but the araby light horsemen are special or something like that.
I would ask some of the more senior members on this site about dogs of war army book/list.
With your tomb king list i would suggest going with a chariot giant one-two punch strategy.

That was quick! Yeah, i've already email GW for a clarification on that one, jst waiting for reply.

Well when im on, im on....

I would to be interested to know what is so cheesy about your orcs and goblins list.

My Orcs? Either 3 or 4 Rocklobbers (depending on whether or not I want boars) and 2 Doomdivers, usually on a hill with 4 large units of orcs (3 archers one with spears or extra h/w) defending it in the castle formation and a flanking force of a Warboss on wyvern and either boars or spider riders. If the points go up to 3000 I tend to include a couple of lines of Night Goblin Archer higher up the battlefied with some fanatics (the plus side being they hold up the enemy and don't panic the Orcs when fleeing. With 3000 points my other lord has to be the Goblin Assassin (Goblin Warboss, Wallopas One Hit Wunda- S10 for one turn, and the Sneaky Skewerer- -3 save for when i've useed up the first weapon. He also has Maads Mapp so gets to deploy as a scout, the Tricksy Trinket- Negates ward saves, and the Brimstone bauble, so anyone in base contact when he dies takes d6 S6 hits. Admittedly this army relies on the fact that I'm always spot on with my range guessing, and more often than not have good rolls with the artillery and scatterdice- but hey, I've had about 8 years playing with rocklobbers so I guess i've just got the knack (and you can see why i'm desparate to have 2 SSC in my army). One of my funnest games recently was when my opponent (Brettonians) got his charge ranges wrong on three expensive units of knights and ended up being on the receivining charge my Orcs...which goes to why I take Arrer Boys/ they're cheap enough to have lots of them, so only having light aromur doesn't matter, and T4 helps, and they have choppas as well, but come into their own when charged by other units of infantry- On a hill, so I can usually get all 4 ranks firing, followed up by +1s in first round of combat, they can hold their own until the Warboss charges in from the rear with whatever cavalry can get there too.

P.S. Played a Dwarf army last week, all foot troops, no artillery or smissile troops. That was fun

Re Dogs of War: The rules for the actual Dogs of War or Regiment of Renown units supercede the fact that they are listed as Rare units. If you check the new greenskin book you should see that Dogs of War are not listed anywhere, but this doesn't mean that you can't take them - you take them as whatever their own rules say they are, if you get my drift. I'm pretty sure I say this on the Warvault chat with Graham McNeill, but as Warvault appears to be down I can't give you an exact quote.

As for your greenskin list, I would not personally go for as much artillery and there are lots of people that will call you cheesy for bring so many heavy-duty war machines. It's just not the way I play greenskins, but standards change from place to place, so in some clubs you might be welcomed and in some you might be thrown out. <shrugs>

I see a fatal flaw with your assassin gobbo though - he's illegal. You can't have more than one of any sort of magic item (unless you have a house rule saying otherwise), and so with two magic weapons and three enchanted items he's breaking that rule.

Your totally right about the goblin, I can't believe I actually missed that, guess I got carried away with him. Only used the little guy twice and the last time he got taken down by an elven lord with the Reaver Bow- but the other opponent didn't mention it, next time I see him i'll have to fess up, and maybe now with a spare lord choice for a 3000pt game I might consider taking the Grimgor model that's been gathering dust on my shelf...

With regards to the war machines, people say they're cheesy but I've had no actual complaints, and none of the wargames clubs i've been a member of have ever considered throwing someone out for using perfectly legal army lists (Super Goblin nonewithstanding, but like I said, i've only used him twice, and he's never in my regular list). If people can't beat something they just have to adapt, or they can just play my Chaos, who in the last 18 months have yet to win a game.

Thanks for the feedback on the Dogs of War, I'm planning on putting a unit of 10 Heavy Cavalry into my TK army, they're the same price as the skelly Heavy Horsemen, but far better.

I have to admit it would be a very nice combo, if it was legal.

The "throwing you out" bit was a joke. I just meant that you might get an awful lot of complaints. I know that among the people I play with I would be killed if I took that amount of war machines and personally I think five or six stone thrower type war machines of a bit over the top, but, yes, it is legal and beatable. And I hear you with a list that never wins - I have never beaten dwarfs in my entire gaming life.

As for the heavy cavalry, it sounds like a good idea to me if you have the free rare slot, but as I don't play Tomb Kings I can't give you any better help than that.