International General, General things

[Shicomm / Bas]

Some basic international stuff here

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We've just got someone new around here!
Coming from the US , a welcome for knifeman / eric !

[knifeman / eric]

Thanks for the warm welcome!
I decided to check out your site since I also own a invisions powered site,very nicely laid out. My son and I own a knife and weapons collecting and filipino martial arts site. We are fairly new so please check out these links to our site. My cousin is intructor Ron Kosakowski who got his black belt 6th degree in kun tao under Grand Master Joseph Rossi. He also holds instructors rank in jeet kune do concepts under Larry Hartsell and Paul Vunack. He has an instructor rank in kali and silat under Grand Master Leo T.Gaje Jr also. He is featured on our site under advertising and you can also link to his site ,the Practical Self Defense Training Center from our home page. please check out our topics, then register,log in and post your opinions to the topics or start a topic of your own. thanks
"The Serrated Edge Home page"

"The Serrated Edge Ron Kosakowski"

"The Serrated Edge All Forums"

[knifeman / eric]

Aren't there any other english speaking members to comment on my post or ask me any questions about the style I practice? I thought at least someone would check out the weblinks to our site and comment on what they observed.

[Shicomm / Bas]

well ; maybe it's a good suggestion that you start up a topic in this part of the board so people can discuss things with you
Please feel free to do so!
Would be really nice to see some international activity here

[knifeman / eric]

I found this information on ninjitsu on another forum that I am a member of. I thought it was informative but I'm not sure how accurate it is.Is all of this infomation correct? Please give your opinions.



3 Ninjas. Mighty Morphin Rangers. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Beverly Hills Ninja. Children have a fascination with the mysterious Ninja warriors of ancient Japan. Every Halloween they go trick-or-treating as Ninja - dressed in black, wearing hoods and sporting plastic Ninja swords. Fortunately the image of the Ninja in our society today is shifting to a more accurate depiction than the sinister henchman image of the 1980s. Ninja were not evil assassins who killed for fun. Ninja did engage in guerrilla warfare and espionage when necessary, but for the most part they were ordinary people who developed certain skills in order to survive the difficult times in feudal Japan's history.

"Ninjutsu" is usually translated as the "art of stealth." The Japanese character, "nin" (also translated as "shinobi") has many meanings, such as perseverance, endurance, and sufferance. The term Ninjutsu is most commonly used to refer to the specific methods and techniques used by the Ninja. Ninjutsu as a way of life didn't happen overnight. It developed over the course of many years. The name Ninjutsu itself didn't come about until several generations after the Ninja lifestyle began.

Ninjutsu was created in central Honshu (the largest of the Japanese islands) about eleven hundred years ago. It was developed by mountain-dwelling families in an area not unlike the American Appalachians, where the terrain is rugged and remote. Ninja families were great observers of nature. They felt a close connection to the Earth, similar to the Native Americans, and their lifestyle was one that lived according to the laws of Nature, not against it. Ninja were also very spiritual people, and their beliefs became an integral part of Ninjutsu.

One of the spiritual influences was Shinto, "the way of the kami." Kami is the Japanese word for "god" or "deity." It implies, however, a feeling for a sacred or charismatic force, rather than a being. The early Japanese regarded their whole world: the rivers, mountains, lakes, and trees, to have their own energy and spirit.

Another spiritual influence on the Ninja was Mikkyo. Mikkyo, for the Ninja, was not a religion as much as it was a method for enhancing personal power. These methods included the use of secret words and symbols to focus their energy and intentions toward specific goals.

It is generally accepted that the methods found in Ninjutsu originated outside of Japan. After the fall of the T'ang dynasty in China, many outcast warriors, philosophers, and military strategists escaped to Japan to avoid punishment by the new Chinese rulers. It is believed that Ninja families were exposed to many of these exiled people's sophisticated warrior strategies and philosophies over the centuries, helping to influence and shape what became Ninjutsu.

The Ninja were also very much influenced by a group of people called Shugenja, who roamed the same mountainous sections as the Ninja. The Shugendo method of spiritual self-discovery consisted of subjecting oneself to the harsh weather and terrain of the area in order to draw strength from the earth itself. They would walk through fire, stand beneath freezing waterfalls, and hang over the edges of cliffs in an effort to overcome fear and assume the powers of nature.

It would be incorrect to say that these three spiritual methods were the actual roots of Ninjutsu, but there is little doubt that they were a large influence. Ninjutsu was and is a separate philosophy.

The Ninja were not particularly warlike, yet they were constantly harassed by the ruling society of Japan. They were routinely subjected to unfair taxation and religious persecution. The Ninja eventually learned to act more and more efficiently in their own self-defense. They used their superior knowledge of the workings of nature, as well as specific military techniques passed down through the years, as weapons against the numerically superior government armies. They used any ruse, harbored any superstition, and employed any strategy to protect themselves. If necessary, they would use devious political manipulations to ensure peace.

There were as many as seventy or eighty Ninja clans operating in the Koga and Iga regions of Japan during the height of Ninja activity. Most of these Ninja were descendants of, or were themselves, displaced samurai. Therefore, they operated on the sidelines of the political schemes of the government. Sometimes a Ninja family would use its military or information-gathering resources to protect its members from becoming victims in a power play between competing samurai clans. Occasionally, a Ninja family would support one faction over another, if they felt it to be to their advantage.

As with any society, there were renegades who misused the training they received. Occasionally, "Ninja" would rent themselves out for espionage or assassination work. Unfortunately these outcasts have become the stereotype of the "evil ninja" that we see today in the media. They were, however, a minority. The average Ninja worked very much in conjunction with his family and community goals.

Ninja were not always primarily soldiers. Of course, certain Ninja operatives, or genin, were trained from childhood as warriors. But this training was usually precautionary. Genin Ninja knew that they might be called to help protect the community at some future time, but, they often spent most of their lives as farmers or tradespeople. Ninja intelligence gatherers sent to live in the strongholds of potential enemies were rarely required to act openly.

If an operative was called to action it was as a result of a carefully plotted, and usually desperate, plan. The genin would be contacted and assigned a mission by his chunin superior. The chunin, or middle man, was a "middle-man" between the jonin family leader and the operative. Jonin made all philosophical and long-range strategic decisions for the clan. Often, the identity of the jonin was kept secret from chunin and genin, alike. Of course certain historical periods required more secret activity than others.

Eventually this activity virtually died out altogether but the legacies, in some cases, remained.

The Roots of Ninjutsu

Although there has been an evolution of Ninjutsu as a life philosophy over the centuries, the fundamental principles have remained virtually unchanged. Togakure ryu Ninjutsu is more than 800 years old. Except for a relatively short period of notoriety prior to the reign of the Tokugawas, the art lived quietly in the hearts of just a few people. The Ninja were a separate society from the urban centered ruling class and the non-privileged classes which served them. Consider the gulf that must have existed between the new American government and the American Indians during the first 125 years following the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Although this is an incomplete and potentially misleading analogy, it may give you a better understanding on how Ninjutsu may have developed as a counterculture to the samurai-dominated Japanese society.

For hundreds of years Ninja families lived in the mountains, practicing their esoteric methods of approaching enlightenment through gaining an understanding of the basic laws of nature. History had taught them that they must be prepared to protect their family and their lifestyle. They perfected a system of martial arts that has earned them the reputation for being the most amazing warriors the world has ever known. It is this reputation that initially attracts most people.

The Ninja's reputation is put into a better perspective when some facts are brought to light. First, Ninja were not wizards or witches, of course, but ordinary men and women with a unique and misunderstood philosophical viewpoint. This philosophy became a very important part of their combat method. Hence, we refer to our art as Ninpo, the "po" suggesting "a higher order", or "encompassing philosophy." The samurai approach to combat was called bushido; it evolved from a general set of guidelines for the gentleman warrior into a formal discipline. The Ninja philosophy, though sharing many of the same values as the original samurai, evolved along a different cultural path.

The Ninja's sometimes devious tactics were seen by some as cowardly and disgusting.* From the Ninja point of view, however, guerrilla warfare versus a numerically superior force was plain good sense. The Ninja were outnumbered, as a rule, so they had to use unusual methods if they ever hoped to survive. Nevertheless, victory was not always ensured. Japanese history books tell of instances of entire Ninja clans being destroyed.

Many times, however, the unusual methods did succeed. Without a working knowledge of the Ninja philosophy, their opponents were unable to figure out the Ninjutsu strategies. The Ninja only seemed like wizards.

Second, stories which have created the modern image of the Ninja as thoughtless criminals, were written after the fact by historians who were sympathetic to the samurai point of view. Since Ninja were not bushi (followers of the samurais' strict code of martial ethics) they were looked down upon as being uncivilized.

Third, the exaggerations of Ninja abilities were started by the Ninja themselves as a deterrent to outside interference. The demonstrated prowess of the Ninja as warriors, as well as the fact that they were such a closed and uncommunicative society, combined to create an opportunity for them to exaggerate their own skills and surround themselves with an eerie cloak of mystery. It is very easy to be frightened of something that is not understood. Thus, this frightening and supernatural mystique was born.** If, however, it was merely the guerrilla tactics of the Ninja that were useful, the lore of the Ninja would not be of interest to the wide range of people who enjoy practicing Ninjutsu today. Far more than stealth or assassination techniques, Ninpo, or the essence of the Ninja's outlook, is a physical, emotional, and spiritual method of self-protection from the dangers that confront those on the warrior path to enlightenment.

[Kennin / Achim]

Well, I diagonally read the text and it's quite accurate in some way, though it's a bit outdated.
For example the rigid "clan structure" as described while explaining the amount of existing clans in the Kōka and Iga region The name of the region was not Koga but Kōka, back in those days).
There seems to be a very strong tendency to deny the existance of "Iga Ninja" and "Kōka Ninja" among the reputed historians. These regions were very rural and hostile environments, where the "ninja" could develope extraordinary survival skills. The fact that the region of Kōka and Iga were separated only by one single mountain makes the historians doubt about the accuracy of the idea of dividing these "clans" into two different fractions.
Probably there were only "a bunch of ninjer clans", nothing more, nothing less, whereas the distinction Kōka vs. Iga was a artificial distinction.
Furthermore, it was in whole Japan that Ninja were found at later dates. The Satsuma family on the island of Kyūshū made prominent use of ninja, as well as Takeda Shingen, a very famous daimyō (land lord).

But then the next big question:

Did ninja exist?
Did they exist as we imagine?
Where they even CALLED ninja?

Most historians answer the last two questions with a definite "no".
The name ninja only emerged after the decline of the "ninja". The word ninja is taken from the kabuki, one of the two great Japanese theater arts, namely the plebean theater.
At first the "ninja" was a black cladded stage worker, who changed stages while the kabuki actors were still playing, where the black garb indicated the "non presence" of the stage worker.
Later, ninja became a character ability. An actor wore the black pyjamas to indicate his invisibility or the fact that he was hiding or sneaking around.
At a last stage, the ninja became the very ninja we all know nowadays, the killer, spy and saboteur who wore the famous black costume...
BUT... we are talking 18th and 19th century here, a time where the "real ninja" already was obsolete and mostly disbanded and disappeared. The Tokugawa era was a long period of relative political stability. The daimyō were no longer scheming as much against each other, making the historical ninja a fossil.
The kabuki ninja emerged out of the blues about one hundred years later, though.
So the link between the black dressed hoodlum and the "real ninja" is far smaller than persumed even as far as about ten or twenty years ago.

Nowadays it is more and more obvious that the ninja did not call himself ninja, nor that anybody else called him that way. The very word is a neologism that was created more than a century later.
The real ninja was called "sarutobi" or "shinobi no mono" or "rappa" or "suppa" or many other things, depending on era and region. But for clearness sake, I will keep using the term ninja, as it clearly depicts what I mean.
The ninja did not wear the black garbs since these were a product of the same time as the word "ninja".
They were not as structured as we imagine... there was no hierarchy being "genin - chūnin - jōnin" as there was no real clan as we imagine it. Ninja clans were 'family business' so there was no need for rigid hierarchical structures and even officer and soldier ranks.
But the most important diversion of theories is the idea that ninja were a counterclass to the samurai. This is utterly doubtful.
Most ninja were samurai, that seems to be quite sure by now. Peasants, merchants and labourers didn't have the time nor the possibility to develope such a combat and survival system as "ninjutsu".
It were the samurai who became ninja, even as far as becoming "ninja for one mission". A samurai sent on an assignment to kill a rival daimyō was a "ninja" as he was an assassin. After the deed, he was "samurai again".
In other words: there is no way one can definite distinct between "ninja" and samurai.

That's all for now... I hope this helps...

As for the reason why nobody reacted on your first post about the knife fighting... I can only talk for myself, but I'm a Bujinkan practitioner. Our art exists out of six active schools of martial arts. Each of these arts takes a life time to study... making it six life times to grasp them all.
I only have ONE life time, so I have more than enough to learn, so there is no need for me to take more than a passive look at other martial arts.
Furthermore I train Bujinkan because I very much like the very essence of this art. I do not think it is perfect or complete, for example there is no tantō in Bujinkan, but still... I love Bujinkan as it is... there is no need to add anything else for my feelings.
This feeling is quite new, though, to be honest. I only found my happiness in the "Booj" about five years ago. And the real satisfaction with what Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu is in its clean and pure form is formed only about three years ago, but I can already feel that this is not temporarily. This evolution will grow and render the chances that I will train another MA at one time smaller each day.
And... IF I would ever train another MA than Bujinkan, it will be a MA that fits into the ideas and body movement of Bujinkan, so it would definitely be a Japanese art whatsoever. Maybe Katori Shintō Ryū might prove to be interesting.
Please don't take this as an offense, for it is not. I do not doubt your abilities nor that of your art. It's just not my cup of tea, if you understand what I mean.
Of course: this is MY reason why I didn't post... I cannot and will not speak for others...

[knifeman / eric]

Thank you Kennin/Achim for your corrections on the posted information on (ninja). It would seem that the western countries have many misconceptions about the "shinobi no mono" and perhaps Hollywood and the film industry have helped to make it worse. Your information has helped greatly and made known to me things that I was unaware of. May I ask where you obtained you historical information?
As for your choice of martial art I take no offense neither am I offended at the fact that you have little interest in mine. I have found Kun Tao,Kali,Silat and Eskrima to be extremely efficient and effective for my needs as I am sure you have found the study of Bujinkan for yourself. Every man must look inside his heart and follow the path that is right for himself. Of course there is the spiritual aspect of both arts also that give us inner calm as well as inner strength and personal growth. The Indonesion and Filipino arts have done this and more for me and I am sure that in my one lifetime I will never attain all that they can offer me. I wish you well on your spiritual jouney to obtain all that Bujinkan has to offer you.
May I post what you wrote on the forum that I obtained my information from? I think your information is very valuable and will shed some light on the true (ninja) and their history.

[Kennin / Achim]

Errr... it's quite difficult to remember sources in those things. I study the Bujinkan since the late 80s so I really don't remember them anymore. It's more the process of picking up things here and there, filling in the big picture.

As for posting this info elsewhere... go ahead. I posted it here as well, so it's not a secret.

[L.Riefenstahl/John]

As far as I know, many if not most people in the Bujinkan have at one point or another been training other martial arts. Either before they started BBT, or during their training. They wanted to explore a certain directory more, like internal systems, or rather full-contact experience. It may also have to do with the fact that the bujinkan consists of 9 different traditions and is already eclectic of its own. As one of the principles of BBT is that you must adept the techniques to your own body/mind, this is not surprising either.

It has been pointed out many times, but it may be worth mentioning again that *all* martial arts develop agains a certain background of culture, ethics, laws, weapons, natural enviroment, etc. So, in my opinion, we should, when studying another system, keep in mind the paradox that on one hand the human body and mind rely on the same basic principles everywhere and always, and that at the same time when we see or train things that we *think* we understand, we may be completely wrong and harm ourselves or others.
This may also be a reson why people are not resonding so enthausiasticly to your post, because they realise that behind your art as well there is literally a whole world of which they know very little, and even when they like to read about it, it is hard for them to comment on this.

On your forum, I like the idea of reviewing different knives. It is often hard to get objective information about these things and I agree that it is imporant to be well-informed on these matters.

People on this forum have been enthausiastic about a BBC documantry series called "Mind, Body and Kick ass Moves". I guess you will not be able to receive it in the US, but it is readily downloadable with emule (http://www.emule.org).
It is a series ment for the general public, so don't expect in-dept or in-side information, but it gives a nice overview of different kinds of martial arts in China, Japan and Filipines.

[knifeman / eric]

Thank you L.Riefenstahl/John for checking out my son and I's site. You can also learn more about our instructor in the advertise topic area of our forum. I'm glad you liked the knife sections. I hope you will feel comfortable posting to the topics or feel free to start a topic of your own. I suppose there are many things that cause barriers to communication. The Indonesion and Filipino culture behind the arts is definately a differerent mind set. Perhaps these arts were concidered to be less civilized or honorable because of the savage animal like fierceness involved in some of the attacks.They fought not so much for honor or princple but for their very survival in the sweltering heat of the Filipino jungles. Anything at hand became a weapon like rattan sticks,rice sickles,bolos used for cutting bush and even gardening tools became the head hunters axe. Then of course there were weapons brought by Moro Muslims that had a deeper more spiritual meaning like the Indonesion keris sword and the barong bolos heavy leaf shaped blade. Even the everyday pocket knife of the day,the karambit became a deadly weapon out of necessity. The history of the Philippines is stained with the blood of courageous warriors who fought to the death. Who continued in battle even with the loss of a limb or who charged into gun fire,killing their enemies,even though bullets were imbedded in their bodies. It is this kind of spirit that bred the Indonesion and Filipino martial arts. Because these arts have vicious joint manipulation locks that often break bones and destroy tendons, eye gouging,pinching to pressure points.,litteral teeth biting to vital areas,headbutts, other devistating strikes and lethal multi weapons training, it has been suggested that these arts are too brutal. Yet in a multiple attack situation,this brutal efficientcy could be the difference between surviving an attack or getting seriously injured or killed.