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 Too soon?, PP6 hells yeah.....
TrojanMan
Posted: Feb 4 2009, 04:54 PM
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Chokepoints and a serious lack of variety were the problems last year. There was also some alleged problems with team balancing as well.

Also, getting everyone ready to start on time. But that's been a problem since the inception of the game.



If people don't like the zombie format, it's easy to change. It's just the only thing that's really been suggested so far.

We can't keep spinning our wheels on the issue, though. If we want to be ready 6 months from now, we need to get the rules down pat so that we can start advertizing.

So is it zombies or is it something else?
Multiple teams or two teams? Are they balanced or not?
Objective based or pure survival?
Fields?

This post has been edited by TrojanMan on Feb 4 2009, 04:55 PM


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Rebel728
Posted: Feb 4 2009, 08:21 PM
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I'd go for a lightly themed L4D PPVI, similar to PPV some props multiple capture the flag stations. This roleplaying stuff is not exactly my cup of tea personally, although I would not mind playing it. I mean it's pump pandemonium the only pump game I am going to see unless I can make it to the Spring Pump Event. I am open to anything.


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[Does that ranking follow Beef around whenever he moves?

That would explain so much... -TrojanMan


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So you're changing your preferred mode of transportation for no other reason than to facilitate the infrequent, occasional enjoyment of your fiancee?

They have a vehicle for that, you know.



It's called a minivan. -TrojanMan
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Jeffy-CanCon
Posted: Feb 5 2009, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (TrojanMan @ Feb 4 2009, 04:54 PM)
...

We can't keep spinning our wheels on the issue, though. If we want to be ready 6 months from now, we need to get the rules down pat so that we can start advertizing.

So is it zombies or is it something else?
Multiple teams or two teams? Are they balanced or not?
Objective based or pure survival?
Fields?

A theme is nice, and Zombies would be a popular one.

You could do it with two teams, or three (competing survivors). Two is simplest.

Points for holding ground. I don't want to see role-playing, or mini-games. Props can be cool, but not really in this theme.

Same fields as last year would be fine.

In my experience, you can mix things up a little so long as you keep the rules simple. Most people won't remember more than a half-dozen rules.


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Slinky
Posted: Feb 5 2009, 03:47 PM
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is there night play??



also id like to play the town this trip last time i went to EMR i played it for all of 45 seconds then triped hit the mud and got shot


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Rebel728
Posted: Feb 5 2009, 04:37 PM
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I would like to try some attack and defend too, survivors in castle and zombies attacking. It could be switched up so that the survivors are raiding the castle and they find it is infested with zombies.


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[Does that ranking follow Beef around whenever he moves?

That would explain so much... -TrojanMan


QUOTE
So you're changing your preferred mode of transportation for no other reason than to facilitate the infrequent, occasional enjoyment of your fiancee?

They have a vehicle for that, you know.



It's called a minivan. -TrojanMan
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Jeffy-CanCon
Posted: Feb 6 2009, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (Rebel728 @ Feb 5 2009, 04:37 PM)
I would like to try some attack and defend too, survivors in castle and zombies attacking. It could be switched up so that the survivors are raiding the castle and they find it is infested with zombies.

That sounds cool.


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TrojanMan
Posted: Feb 6 2009, 11:17 AM
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I agree that using multiple teams adds to complexity, but that's the only way I could see to do an authentic L4D game. Obviously, you need to take some liberties with the model (since it's paintball) and you can't have stuff like special roles (tank, witch, etc), but you can keep the 'survival' mentality and have it work.

My problem with area control is that it's the same thing as Castle or Western Worrs. There's no need to reboot a game and just change the names on the teams.

I figure if you're going to do a zombie theme, you should score the game based on survival. It's not a common type of game (unless you count pure elimination style, which is still *slightly* different) and I think you can do it without forcing people to stay off the field for long periods of time. Having only one life is a lame way to play.



It's tough to score on survival with just two teams. Perhaps we could have more of a shuttle run?

Two teams, one plays zombies, one survivors. Survivors need to get from point A to point B, zombies try to stop them. For every survivor that makes it alive, your team scores one point. When you make it to the safehouse, you can either help defend it to make room for your buddies (you're still alive, after all) or you can put your barrel bag on, walk back and try to make the run again for another point. At the end of the allotted time, the whistle is blown and the teams trade roles. Same field. After each team gets an equal crack at a field, you move on to another field.

It keeps the teams to two and changes the scoring a bit (we'll need a ref with a counter or tally sheet) but it still scores on survival and keeps the play moving around. We don't need to impose any other rules to try and even things out since both teams should have an equal chance at things.

After three full rounds (say, three field layouts, 45 minutes each round for a total of 4.5 hours. If we have 15 minute turnaround between games and 30 minute turnaround between fields, that'll take 6 hours and 15 minutes from when we start. 10:00 to 11:45 for the first round, lunch break until 1:00, then 1:00 to 2:45 second round, 3:30 to 5:15 third round. Final battle 6:00 to 6:30? Or we could have 1-hour matches and just do two rounds and a final battle.

Use 3 (or two) different fields - the field last year (PC Acres to Boneheads) - the upper fields (H-trench to Tippmann Town) - and the middle fields (Castle to Ft. Worr). We get to use the entire field and everything is even.

No props, nothing to carry. Survive and your team gets points. Do we like that format better?




Also, it's worth noting that night play is very unlikely to happen at PP. Very few people even like to play at night and once the kegs come out, nobody is going to want to be on the field anyhow.


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turbo chicken
Posted: Feb 6 2009, 11:37 AM
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kind or reminds me of a "protect the president" type game. cept you get points for everyone that makes it... awesome!

I've nothing to add... just wanted to act like i cared even though i won't be able to attend.


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Clearush
Posted: Feb 6 2009, 12:49 PM
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I would suggest you make it a three team game instead and make the games longer than 45min, it goes really quick.

Also add in 1 or two objective points to pick up a neccessary prop or two to "open" the safe house could make it a little more intresting.

If I had the ability to travel to EMR for a game I would. Have fun.


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Brimstone
Posted: Feb 7 2009, 04:09 PM
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i think same field except its going to be the far back right corner to the corner that is presently pub crawling acres.... that little fort by the camping area.

as for theme IDK yet. keep up the ideas. sorry i've been away, my life made a 180.


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TrojanMan
Posted: Feb 7 2009, 09:43 PM
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Any reason we're set on that field?

If we're stuck with that field, it'll be tough to do anything other than 2 opposing teams.



If it's an issue with people coming for open play like last year, I don't think it would be a problem if, as we suggested, we only use the other fields temporarily throughout the day. If that's the way we wanted to run it, I'd think Blue would be willing to work with us on a field schedule. Not like we'd be taking up the town, Castle and the "money-making" fields all day.

Brim, Noodles wants to help out more with the rules this year to try to free you up more to talk with sponsors. You were a bit pressed last year so she wanted to try to take some weight off you. You should give her a call sometime this week if you get a minute.


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shadow
Posted: Feb 8 2009, 07:07 AM
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QUOTE (TrojanMan @ Feb 4 2009, 05:54 PM)
Chokepoints and a serious lack of variety were the problems last year.  There was also some alleged problems with team balancing as well.

We must have been playing different games. I didn't experience any of that. If me and my guys found a "chokepoint", we'd simply go around. Some times it was a long way around, but we never felt stuck. There was always space to move. If we wanted to get stuck, it just meant a good fight. We never found there to be a lack of variety either. If we wanted to attack, we'd find a place to attack, if we wanted to defend, there was the trappers camp, little castle and a bigger castle. If we wanted to roam around, that was easy too. There were options of fighting for several flag stations as well as trying to steal the opposition base flag. Perhaps there was lack of variety when it came to role playing, but we don't do any of that, so I can't comment. Team balancing seemed fine too, as far as numbers went. One side did get rolled, but that's been the case for the past several pandemonium games. One side just seems more organized and willing to stay on the field and move around the field more than the other.

Anyway,
- one long game, perhaps a lunch break for the broken and tired.
- same field size to have room to manuever.
- several flags in verious castles/structures to create fun attack and defend objectives.
- base flags that need to be stolen to add another dimention.
- maybe a center flag at the speedball court or something similar to create place to go for an instant fight.
- two sides.
- instant reinsertion. this will prevent prolonged base camping.
There you have it, a big game with options of things to do and places to go. Some fun, pump play.
- if you want to spice it up more for roleplaying guys, add some characters.

Forcing players to go from point A to point B will create a serious lack of variety. It will certainly create chocke points. Complicated respawn rules or point keeping will create tracking issues. A third team will threaten to spoil any balance to the sides.

I don't want to start an internet fight here, just offering another perspective playing experience. I know you guys are writing the game, not me.

This post has been edited by shadow on Feb 8 2009, 07:10 AM
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Chemical X
Posted: Feb 8 2009, 10:10 PM
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I might be the only one saying this but I dont care for the lunch break.

I snack throughout the day, typically after im shot out ill get some chow before entering again.


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T-Slay
Posted: Feb 9 2009, 11:01 AM
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maybe game type could be like infection off of Halo 3

http://halowiki.net/p/Infection

It really is perfect it has defense limited ammo for humans. Really think it could be alot of fun start out with human teams bigger, and when you are shot as a human by a zombie, you switch teams. and if a human shoots a zombie they just go to the dead box and respawn.


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vague312
Posted: Feb 24 2009, 10:46 PM
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event based off the old Aeon Flux cartoon would be neat.
Aeon could lead the Monican army in one last effort to overthrow the Bregnan government.


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Rebel728
Posted: Feb 27 2009, 06:39 PM
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If we do a L4D game, we should be zombies first.


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[Does that ranking follow Beef around whenever he moves?

That would explain so much... -TrojanMan


QUOTE
So you're changing your preferred mode of transportation for no other reason than to facilitate the infrequent, occasional enjoyment of your fiancee?

They have a vehicle for that, you know.



It's called a minivan. -TrojanMan
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Yellow#5
Posted: Feb 28 2009, 01:49 PM
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Wow, reading through all this, I was gearing up for a long post, but Shadow covered most of what I wanted to say. I will emphasize a couple things...

I thought Pandemonium last year was awesome. I wish that word hadn't been watered down so much in our language - I would rank it in my top two games in my 14 years playing.

My friends and I (I'm coming with a group of 13 smile.gif ) also make this trip because it is one of the only all-pump, all-day games I know of. We get to play pump pick-up/walk-on/mini-games fairly regularly at home, and on Sunday on PP weekends. Keep Saturday a scenario/big game, please. I don't mind a lunch break to switch sides so everybody gets to see the whole field, but chopping up the day more than that detracts from the epic experience.

Whether you want to split hairs on the difference between 'scenario' vs 'big game' the theme does not matter much to me. Zombies are great, but a strictly Get-From-A-To-B mission doesn't make for much variety. I thought the flag scheme and layout last year was great.

Two teams might end up being unbalanced, but adding any more factions is almost a guarantee that one or more will be ganged up on by the others. Last year, the morning was a bit one sided, but after the lunchtime switch it sure seemed like both teams had decent footing.

Simple is good, familiar is not bad. There is a reason 'tried and true' is what it is- because it has proven to work. There are a lot of what-ifs that might be cool, but everybody has to be on board. Since by definition the average player does not go for the extreme things, sticking to what works is not an unreasonable plan, even if it has been done before.

I don't mind instant reinsertion, but having a defined window also helps make things interesting - I can go either way.

Well...looks like I managed a long post anyway, as well as succeeding in repeating a lot of what Shadow said. Oh well, there's my two cents.


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TrojanMan
Posted: Mar 1 2009, 01:28 AM
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In the interest of nailing a few things down, it seems like we've decided on the following:

* Keep it one big game with only a short break for lunch and to switch sides (perhaps an hour). Maybe a short break before a final battle.
* Theme is irrelevant, but it's still useful dressing. Use something interesting that doesn't detract from the gameplay.
* The gameplay, of course, is a one-hit, you're out. Go back and respawn. For everybody. No special roles, no supermen, third teams or obscure player types.
* Move towards faster spawning, perhaps to multiple insertion points (2 per team?). The game should be decided on how well a team fights, not how well it exploits the ruleset.
* While it would be great to use the town/castle/some other cool field, it's better if the game stays fluid and moving than if we stop it to move from field to field. The fields last year had no problems.
* In the end, its most about moving around the field and having small skirmishes with a bunch of different people. Win or lose, players want to feel as if they've exhausted all the potential gameplay from the given scenario.

Agree/disagree?



If that's the case, then we can keep it to territorial control (via flags) just like last year. If anyone has a beef about being boxed in, what we can do is have both teams on an insertion cycle (say 10 minutes with a 2-minute window) but if 4/5 flags are owned by the other team (let's just say) then your team gets instant/constant reinsertion until you take one back.

There are other things you can do, of course, but that's just an idea I'll throw out there.

I know PP games should be kept simple, and I'm not trying to complicate things, but I think you do want to change things just enough from year to year so that people don't feel like they're playing exactly the same game over and over again. I think that if we're going to add a new element to the game, it should be with respawning because that seems to have been the make-it/break-it point of last year. Nothing extravagant, of course, but just change up the timing a little bit perhaps to keep more people on the field.

Thoughts?


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Rebel728
Posted: Mar 1 2009, 01:59 AM
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I agree with you TM, could you or someone else explain this whole being boxed in thing?

My games here are played on constant reinsertion, which is nice I suppose. I played half of the game last summer so it was a surprise to see such a type of reinsertion as that.

I like the idea of the old reinsertion type but if we get swamped or vice versa a constant reinsertion rule would be great.


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QUOTE
[Does that ranking follow Beef around whenever he moves?

That would explain so much... -TrojanMan


QUOTE
So you're changing your preferred mode of transportation for no other reason than to facilitate the infrequent, occasional enjoyment of your fiancee?

They have a vehicle for that, you know.



It's called a minivan. -TrojanMan
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TrojanMan
Posted: Mar 4 2009, 12:37 PM
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I don't feel tardy...


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I said "boxed in" because for the first 2 hours or so of the game last year, the downhill team was completely pinned in their insertion zone. A lot of times, it's easy to chalk up laziness as the problem where the pinned team just doesn't have the will to run out and fight and get shot in the process but not this time. It was just a grinder.

Part of the issue was the location of the spawn point. There wasn't much hard cover and what was available was very low to the ground. There were some effective crawls made, but even if you tagged one or two people out, the uphill team was still able to keep more people on the field because they had the advantage of hard cover (the entire rock wall). There were some other contributing factors and a recurring one is starting time and game pacing. I'll address this specifically because it really is a serious problem.


The attitude of a lot of the 'regulars' is poisonous. They're slow to get on the field and a lot of people seem more interested in chatting and hanging out than playing the game. We can't let this attitude be as prevalent anymore. We need to step up, have our gear ready the night before, wake up early and get to the briefing prepared, loaded up and chrono'd. If even just 30 or 40 people did that, it would jump start everyone else. I love beer as much as anyone else and I love to stay up late Friday and drink my brains out but we've got to start discouraging this sort of thing. When the Friday night party goes until 3 or 4 AM, it's no wonder that nobody is ready. The old guys are one thing, they're always going to be slow. But us? There's no excuse for it other than our own apathy. We need to realize that we go to the event in order to play paintball. Hell, people actually refuse invitations to stay in the SCP bunkhouse because it's too noisy for them to sleep at 1AM. We're not talking about people who want to go to bed at 9 or 10, but sensible people who'd like to get at least 6 or 7 hours' sleep. We really need to change some of the culture of the event to refocus it on the game of paintball.


I mean, is that what all the squabbling is really about? It's the culture that says, well I want things this way, and it doesn't matter if that's realistic or not, but I want things to go this way. We just can't do that anymore. We all need to contribute to the game itself. Play honestly and play hard. If everyone contributes, everyone will have a good time. But when people are hanging back and moving slow because they're too hung over... I dunno, it just makes for not a fun game.

Now I'm not saying that's what happened last year. The downhill team played as hard as they could and there were other factors that held them back. Honestly, it was still pretty fun even though we got our @$$3$ beat. Whatever, it's paintball. But we need to change this culture that puts everybody's personal wet dream of what the ideal paintball game should be upfront and uncompromised.



If we can't agree on a game format, then we're bound to be saddled with a sh*tty one. It's less than 6 months to go and we still don't have the rules or fields nailed down. What the hell are we doing here besides sitting on our thumbs?

I'll take my share of the blame. I sat around last year and waited for somebody else to pick up the torch. Brimstone did a great job, but when he went out of the country for two months before the event, things got understandably f^(ked to some degree. We pulled out a fine game, and we always have, but I can't help but think that we could have done it better.


So what do we do this year? Step up, man up, get an idea and follow through on it.

Maybe you want to cook food. Maybe you want to brew/bring beer. Maybe you want to build and donate a giveaway gun. Maybe you want to set up a public tech table with tools in the chrono area. I don't know what ideas you guys have. But if you have an idea that would make PP a better game, do it. Don't wait for agreement, don't wait for input. Tell us what your idea is and then just do it. Ask for help if you need to, but until we start acting, nothing is going to get done. Six months goes by quick and before you know it, you'll be packing your car and wishing you had more time. Start now.



I need to call Brim tonight. We need to know what's available to us and we need to get the game hammered out. Nothing needs to be complicated, but we need to do it.

Time is too short and our resources are too few to just sit idle as the clock ticks away. We can have a great game, but we're going to have to work to make it that way.


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